Salary Secrecy — Discrimination Against Women? A look at gender wages and privileges enjoyed by women

Updated January 31, 2018

Many feminists claim the gender wage gap affects women of all ages. Is that true? Consider: “…an analysis of 14 million employer retirement accounts that are serviced by Fidelity found that women saved 9% of their paychecks in 2016, while men set aside 8.6% for their golden years.” –USA Today, May 19, 2017 

The feminists have it backwards. The wage gap doesn’t affect women of any age — women affect the gender wage gap. So do men, equally. Peruse this again after reading this Male Matters commentary.


Bureau of Labor Statistics

U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, page 8

Updated May 9, 2017

A few months after I, a man, was hired into a company in the mid-1960s, in the “Mad Men” era, another man was hired to do the exact same thing — at a sizeably higher salary than mine.

The company had a policy of salary confidentiality. (When the boss is away, some workers discuss their salaries despite the policy.) The policy’s main purpose was to give the company enough wiggle room to woo from other companies, especially competitors, people it thought would be star performers.

Benefits, too, can vary in the same company. In the early ’70s, when I had a road job, I overheard a co-worker, who held the exact same position I held, say he’d received a bump in his gas allowance. I asked, “How come I didn’t get it?” “You have to ask,” he said. I did, having a wife and child to feed, and I got it.

There are also such non-gender-based disparities as this: “Then when the economy improved, we have salary inversion: entry-level faculty were hired at a higher salary level and long-serving faculty found themselves with salaries that were near at or even less then the newly hired professors.” (See also this.)

What all this means is that, where salary secrecy is banned, women learn that some of them make more than some of the women and some of the men — all doing the exact same work, often right next to each other, elbow to elbow.

Most Americans oppose pay transparency

Here’s what women’s advocates don’t want anyone to know concerning women, men, and the wage gap:

In general, American women as a group don’t just enjoy better health and live longer than men, who on average die sooner and at a higher rate of the 12 leading causes of death. (That longevity gap has more than doubled in the U.S. since 1900. “There’s not a better indicator of well-being than life expectancy,” says Philip Morgan, a demographer at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.) They also save more and control most of the consumer spending, which is about 70% of all economic activity in the US.

Even more striking than controlling most of the consumer spending, women as a group own most of the nation’s personal wealth. According to Business Insider, “76% of Americans believe that men control more wealth than women. But a new survey of Federal Reserve Board data reveals that women actually control 51.3% of personal wealth in the United States.” (See also Lisa T. Wood’s site.) paints an even brighter financial picture for women: “In the US alone, women control $14 trillion assets or roughly 60% of personal wealth and 51% of stock, which is expected to climb to $22 trillion in 2020.”

Women save more than men: “Fidelity’s analysis also found that when comparing annual savings rates, women come out on top:
Looking specifically at workplace retirement accounts, women consistently saved a higher percentage of their paychecks than their male counterparts at every salary level. Women saved an annual average of 9.0 percent of their paychecks, compared to an average of 8.6 percent saved by their male counterparts.”

It has been this way for decades. In 1960, according to Click Americana, “Women have more money than men. Total holdings of American women include 66 percent of all US Savings Bonds, 65 percent of all savings bank accounts, 53 percent of all publicly held stocks.”

Soon women will control an even greater percentage of the wealth.

“Over the next decade,” says, “women will control two thirds of consumer wealth in the United States and be the beneficiaries of the largest transference of wealth in our country’s history. Estimates range from $12 to $40 trillion. Many Boomer women will experience a double inheritance windfall, from both parents and husband.”

The typical wife is younger than her husband by 2.5 years. At age 65, she can be expected to outlive her same-age husband by 2.6 years. Thus the typical wife enjoys her and her husband’s wealth 5.1 years longer than her husband, who much more often than she created their wealth alone.

Female privilege extends to the legal system. In The Boy Crisis, author Warren Farrell writes:

“If your son commits a minor crime, he is also more likely to go to jail or prison than your daughter. First, if he has no criminal history and has committed a crime identical to that of your daughter, your son is more likely to be charged; second, he is more likely to be convicted of that crime; and third, when he is convicted, on average your son will receive a 63 percent longer sentence.” 

Being less often charged creates the image of women as being less criminal, which leads to charging women less, which leads to….

“We have discussed how, in an era of consciousness about racism in law enforcement, we are comparatively blind to the sexism that can magnify that racism. It is unlikely that your son will learn in school that the gap in sentencing is six times greater for men versus women than it is for blacks versus whites.” [Bold and italics Farrell’s.] (See also the University of Michigan Law School’s report.)

“…[A]t the height of the Depression, 154 men committed suicide for each 100 women. Yet by 2015, in good economic times, boys and men were committing suicide three and a half times more often than women.”

To put all of these statements in the proper gender perspective, reverse the sexes in them:

In general, men don’t just enjoy better health and live longer than women, who on average die sooner and at a higher rate of the 12 leading causes of death. (That longevity gap has more than doubled since 1900.) They as a group also control most of the consumer spending and most of the nation’s personal wealth. Soon they will control even more.

The typical husband is younger than his wife by 2.5 years. At age 65, he can be expected to outlive his same-age wife by 2.6 years. Thus the typical husband enjoys his and his wife’s wealth 5.1 years longer than his wife, who much more often than he created their wealth alone.

If a female commits a minor crime, she is more likely to go to jail or prison than a male. First, if she has no criminal history and has committed a crime identical to that of a male, she is more likely to be charged; second, she is more likely to be convicted of that crime; and third, when she is convicted, on average she will receive a 63 percent longer sentence.

It is unlikely that your daughter will learn in school that the gap in sentencing is six times greater for women versus men than it is for blacks versus whites.

At the height of the Depression, 154 women committed suicide for each 100 men. Yet by 2015, in good economic times, girls and women were committing suicide three and a half times more often than men.

Is this the expected behavior of an under-privileged, economically poor group: “Women Are Spending Hundreds on ‘Designer Nipples.’” How seriously should we take the employed woman who’s known for making her nipples visible around town if she applies for a position in management? If feminists say we should take her very seriously, how seriously would they take a man doing this?

Add to these, among many other things, a gender reversal of the 92 percent of workplace deaths and the 79 percent of suicides that occur to men.

If all these events occurred to women instead of to men, they would signify enough unfair male power, privilege, and advantage that feminists would explode out onto the streets in thunderous protest.

Does this sound like the oppressed group — the longer-living, healthier, wealthier group — that women’s advocates would have us believe women are?

It’s often believed that “men have the power” because on average they earn more money than women. But there is no power in earning money. There is only responsibility, stress, and, yes, sometimes real blood, sweat, and tears. Earning money takes away both power and freedom. If there is power in money, it is in spending it. Ask any politician. Or ask anyone who bribes politicians. Thus, which of the two sexes has more power? (Search for “There is no power in earning money” in “The Doctrinaire Institute for Women’s Policy Research.”) 

Regarding women’s “77-80 cents to men’s dollar for the same work,” I suspect that many if not most pay-equity advocates think employers are greedy profiteers who:

  • would hire only illegal immigrants for their lower labor cost if they could get away with it
  • would move all or part of their business to a cheap-labor country to save money (see the last paragraph at the site)
  • would replace older workers with younger ones for the same reason.

So why do these same advocates think employers would not hire only women if, as the advocates say, employers DO get away with paying females at a lower rate than males for the same work? (See “Why don’t greedy companies pay their employees higher salaries.”)

if business is greedy

Here are just three of countless examples showing that some of the most sophisticated women in the country choose to earn less even if getting paid at the same rate as their male counterparts:

In 2011, 22% of male physicians and 44% of female physicians [nearly half!] worked less than full time, up from 7% of men and 29% of women from Cejka’s 2005 survey.” [Emphasis by Male Matters]

…[O]nly 35 percent of women who have earned MBAs after getting a bachelor’s degree from a top school are working full time.” It “is not surprising that women are not showing up more often in corporations’ top ranks.

A study of students graduating from Carnegie Mellon found that 57% of males negotiated for a higher starting salary than had been offered, compared to just 7% of females. As a result, starting salaries of men were 7.6% (almost $4,000) higher than those of women.

A thousand laws won’t turn that around.


“Want to close [the] wage gap? Step one: Change your major from feminist dance therapy to electrical engineering.” –Christina Hoff Sommers

Perhaps now it’s understandable why none of the following measures over the last half century has closed the gender wage gap:

-The 1963 Equal Pay for Equal Work Act
-Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act
-The 1978 Pregnancy Discrimination Act
-Affirmative action (which has benefited mostly white women, the group most vocal about the wage gap –
-The 1991 amendments to Title VII
-The 1991 Glass Ceiling Commission created by the Civil Rights Act
-The 1993 Family and Medical Leave Act
-The Age Discrimination in Employment Act
-The Americans with Disability Act (Title I)
-Workplace diversity
-The countless state and local laws and regulations
-The thousands of company mentors for women
-The horde of overseers at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
-TV’s and movies’ last three decades of casting women as thoroughly integrated into the world of work (even in the macho world of spying, James Bond’s boss is a woman)
-The National Labor Relations Act
-The 2009 Ledbetter Fair Pay Act (In 2009, the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act was signed into law, but that too has failed to significantly close the wage gap for women.)
-The 2010 National Equal Pay Enforcement Task Force
-It is highly likely that the 2016 EEO-1 report, which begins collecting summary pay data, will join this list of failed measures.

A Politifact December 23, 2019, update on the sexes’ pay: “What is the pay gap between men and women? Key facts revealed”

These measures have failed because women’s pay-equity advocates, who always insist one more law is needed, continue to overlook the effects of female AND male behavior:

Despite the 40-year-old demand for women’s equal pay, millions of wives still choose to have no pay at all. In fact, according to Dr. Scott Haltzman, author of “The Secrets of Happily Married Women,” stay-at-home wives, including the childless who represent an estimated 10 percent, constitute a growing niche. “In the past few years,” he says in a CNN report, “many women who are well educated and trained for career tracks have decided instead to stay at home.”

“For most men, the road to high pay is a toll road.” -Warren Farrell, The Boy Crisis, a stunning book that may change readers’ lives

(“Census Bureau data show that 5.6 million mothers stayed home with their children in 2005, about 1.2 million more than did so a decade earlier….” “…[M]ore women than men voluntarily leave the labor force, often finding meaningful work in the home.” If indeed a higher percentage of women is staying at home, perhaps one unrecognized reason is that feminists and the liberal media have told women for years that female workers are paid less than men in the same jobs and will be harassed — so why bother working outside the home if they’re going to be penalized and humiliated for being a woman, as illustrated by such titles as this: “Gender wage gap sees women spend 7 weeks working for nothing“. Note: In 2015, 10 million fewer women than men were in the labor force, 73.5 million women compared to 83.6 million men. See also Time’s January 19, 2018 report, “No, All Those Strollers Aren’t Your Imagination. More Women Are Having Children.” How does this help the gender wage gap?)

Numbering in the millions, stay-at-home wives, whether mothers or childless homemakers, earn zero wages. How can millions of women afford to do this while in many cases living in luxury? Answer: Because they’re paid to stay at home by an “employer” — their husband. (Even today, far more wives are supported by a spouse than are husbands. Why aren’t feminists telling women to become an “employer” who supports a husband? That’s one way to close the gap.)

You’ve probably taken a guess as to how much money your coworkers and others make, compared with you. Evidence suggests you probably aren’t very accurate. In one PayScale survey of 71,000 people, for example, 64% of those paid the average market rate thought they were paid less than average. At the same time, 35% who were paid above market rates also thought they were paid less than average. –Harvard Business Review, “Baseball Teams Show When Pay Transparency Backfires,” May 9, 2017

The implication of this is probably obvious to most 12-year-olds but seems incomprehensible to, or is wrongly dismissed as irrelevant by, feminists and the liberal media: If millions of wives are able to accept NO wages, millions of other wives, whose husbands’ incomes vary, are more often able than husbands to:

  1. accept low wages
  2. refuse overtime and promotions
  3. choose jobs based on interest first, wages second — the reverse of what men tend to do (The most popular job for American women as of 2010 is still secretary/administrative assistant. It has been a top ten job for women for more than 50 years. See why: “Want to find a husband? Be a secretary (1952).”)
  4. take more unpaid days off
  5. avoid uncomfortable wage-bargaining
  6. work fewer hours than their male counterparts, or work less than full-time more often than their male counterparts (as in the above example regarding physicians)

Any one of these job choices lowers women’s median pay relative to men’s. And when a wife makes one of the choices, her husband often must take up the slack, thereby increasing HIS pay — and decreasing his freedom.

Women who make these choices are generally able to do so because they are supported — or, if unmarried, anticipate being supported — by a husband who feels pressured to earn more than if he’d chosen never to marry. (Married men earn more than single men, but even many men who shun marriage, unlike their female counterparts, feel their self worth is tied to their net worth.) This is how MEN help create the wage gap: as a group they tend more than women to pass up jobs that interest them for ones that pay well.

Women’s advocates and the liberal media fail (miserably, in my opinion) when they ignore the influence on married women, AND on many single women who aspire to marry, of a husband’s or a future husband’s income and willingness to be the primary provider who supports a wife when she exercises, usually at a time of her own choosing, her options of working full-time, working part-time, or being a stay-at-home wife.

Here’s one result of marriage’s influence on both women and men, as told by entrepreneur Stacy Epstein at Quartz:

“Among all the hires that I’ve made at my last three companies, literally every man I‘ve negotiated with asked for more money, more stock, or both. One hundred percent of the time. I’d estimate that women ask for more only 10% of the time. And in addition to asking about company and stock valuations, I’ve had men ask to see full cap tables, recent board decks, and sales results. Women? Almost never.”

“Women are more likely than men to state that they are uncomfortable negotiating salary – 31 percent vs. 23 percent – and that holds true even among C-level executives where 26 percent of female Chief Executives said they’re uncomfortable negotiating compared to 14 percent of male Chief Executives.” –

A recap of some of the dynamics that help set the stage for a wage gap to be created:

  • Because of socialization, men and women generally develop a different psychology regarding money-making. The main difference is that far more women than men can detach earning an income from their self-worth. In marriage, men are expected far more often than women to be either the sole or primary provider. Hence men are far more often burdened with the expectation of attaining success. They know this and deeply internalize it. Far more often than women, men link net-worth to self-worth.
  • Far more women than men seek spouses with a high net-worth (hypergamy)
  • Far more single women than single men ask prospective dates, “What do you do?” — and then listen more closely to the answer.
  • Far more women than men look at a prospective spouse as an “employer” who will pay them to stay at home when they choose to do so.
  • “Most women believe what makes a Quality Man is his ability to swoop her off her feet, wine and dine her at the best restaurants around town, and give her presents and a very wealthy lifestyle.” Only a well-off man can do all that. While many women say men pressure them to be sex objects, looking for a “Quality Man” is how a woman can make a man feel pressured to be a success object who earns more than she does and who thus helps perpetuate the gender wage gap that enrages politicized feminists. -Quote is from Huffington Post, January 9, 2015

Perhaps we can now better understand why, according to 2013 data at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the following jobs contain one percent or less female workers: boilermakers, brick masonry, stonemasonry, septic tank servicing, sewer pipe cleaners and trash collectors. By contrast, women are 97 percent of preschool and kindergarten teachers, 80 percent of social workers, 82 percent of librarians and 92 percent of dietitians and nutritionists and registered nurses.

Now learn about the spurious, immoral racist act set in motion decades ago by white ideological feminists who claim that because of the gender wage gap, white women are as economically oppressed as blacks:

Why affirmative action failed black families where it matters most” 

This is not what you think it is.


*Well, one law would close the gender wage gap almost overnight: a law that prohibits men from supporting women.

Think about it, factoring out the matter of children for the moment: Suppose a law barred men from supporting women, in marriage and out, and from spending money on them and giving them money or assets of any kind, directly or indirectly. Every unemployed wife in the country would be forced to get a job. And millions of employed women would be forced to obtain a better one, raising women’s average pay immediately and dramatically. “Without husbands,” says Farrell, “women have to focus on earning more. They work longer hours, they’re willing to relocate and they’re more likely to choose higher-paying fields like technology.”

And how would this prohibition effect men? Millions would no longer feel the need for a high-paying job to attract women and gain and hold a woman’s love. A good number of the men already holding a high-paying and likely stressful job would gleefully walk away, sending employers into a frenzy recruiting women. Men would no longer have to earn as much as before, and women would have to earn more. Presto — the sexes’ wage gap would snap shut with a thunderous clap. An ideological feminist fantasy come true!

(Archived at



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53 Responses to Salary Secrecy — Discrimination Against Women? A look at gender wages and privileges enjoyed by women

  1. zodak says:

    this gap thing has ben disproven over & over again by so many people but it still doesn’t stop mothers from dressing up their daughters as princesses to repeat the lie using F-bombs.


  2. Riversong says:

    Yes, the wage gap is largely a myth and its popularity in the public imagination is due mostly to the prevalence and power of feminist propaganda. But you weaken your case and your credibility when you mix this purely cultural and economic issue with your obvious political and ideological bias.


    • Thanks for the response.

      Could you pinpoint via a quote from the commentary my political and ideological bias? If one cites facts, then reveals a bias, how does the bias weaken the facts and hence my case?

      Re your statement “the wage gap is largely a myth and its popularity in the public imagination is due mostly to the prevalence and power of feminist propaganda.”

      You seem, amazingly enough, to be unaware that many feminists would say you have astounding political and ideological bias. I’d love to watch you say this in front of a feminist pay-equity group.

      Liked by 1 person

  3. cherylw55 says:

    What a load of superficial smokes-screening in your post.

    “In general, women not only live longer and enjoy better health than men, who die sooner and at a higher rate of the 12 leading causes of death”

    Men used to do a lot of manual outdoor work which if its not too heavy can be good for you but most jobs these days are more sedentary. However housework i.e. making the beds hanging and/or folding washing, mopping floors, vacuuming, gardening all provide some exercise. As women do not retire or have holidays from these activities then they are likely to stay healthy and active for longer. I think women are more careful in what they eat because they need to stay energetic to cope with the huge work demands of a job plus housework and kids. They don’t have as much money to spend on alcohol etc.
    As for consumer spending well they have to cook all the meals and provide complete household service which is where a good part of the money goes. Its when there is extra money that the men usually grab it to buy themselves a nice toy i.e. boat, car or spend it on other women, drinking with mates etc.

    This is what Lower Pay For Women Is Really About – Read ON

    One of the main reasons for unequal pay is to force women in marriages to do most of the housework and child minding. It’s a silent pact that men adhere to keep the good life of not having to do much house work. The wealthy are well aware of the number of servants they need to pay to do the work of 1 wife in a house.
    The excuse preferred by men for dumping most of the unpaid work on their wives is usually that they earn more money so the wife should do all this unpaid stuff as her share. And that’s the unspoken unwritten pact that men in male dominated companies and governments share. They support other men over their wives, for advancement money favors etc. The unwritten code is you don’t step on other men if want to get ahead. The boys are a club and support powerful
    allies not penniless women.

    low pay keeps women powerless and compliant in relationships and it is covertly enforced by men in business and government. If men earn more money and their wives would be hard pushed financially without them, they are the ruler of the family and can do what they please
    without fear of any real consequences. They cheat and the wife forgives them. They can bash and the wife will forgive them because she likely cannot afford to keep the family together without their paycheck.
    There is a lot for men to loose if woman can command equality in relationships. 1. a comfortable lifestyle similar to having servants which they couldn’t otherwise afford. The other is not having to do housework allows them to focus on making money and getting ahead.
    When I think of what it must be like to never have to cook breakfast, lunch, dinner, clean, wash clothes, make beds vacuum dust, clean the toilet, tidy up, pick up, shop or do the multitude
    of other tasks a mother/wife does I feel that would be good. When I think how it must feel to come back to a clean home with meals waiting for me like in a hotel this song comes to mind.

    Wouldn’t it Be Lovely

    All I want is a room somewhere
    Far away from the cold night air
    With one enormous chair
    Oh, wouldn’t it be lovely ?
    Lots of chocolate for me to eat
    Lots of coal makin’ lots of heat
    Warm face, warm hands, warm feet
    Oh, wouldn’t it be lovely ?
    Oh so lovely sittin’ abso-bloomin’-lutely still

    And housework has been getting to be a bigger and bigger job due to increasing hygiene standards and much more stuff to manage. I.E. People used to have a change of clothes once a week and now everything has to be washed every day. That’s 7 times the washing.

    Sure we have washing machines. But the sorting,the folding etc have not gone away. Many guys moan about their partners using the dryer and never consider that their wife is doing 7 times the washing their grandmother did and will have to peg it all on the line watch the weather forecast etc. They moan of course because they want a wife to save them expense so they can get ahead financially and drive a nice car, while the wife and kids often have an old bomb (or less expensive car).There are still clothes that cannot be washed in the machine so because people have a lot more clothes these days there is still just as much hand washing as there ever was.

    Its not just washing of course but domestic labor has changed quite a bit. In the good old days your wife probably had female relatives who didn’t work living near by who could give them regular breaks

    from child minding etc. Today’s women don’t always have that and so work on and on without enough time out to recover their energy. Im not saying that there are not men who work really hard. The point is that if they don’t want to do overtime and get ahead then they don’t have to. And they are not attacked by society if they only do 40 hours per week.

    Many of the meager contributions that men used to make to domestic life are now often paid for . E.G lawn mowing, wood chopping etc. Granted some men still do those things but they are not essential 7 day a week must do tasks. If you don’t want to do it you don’t have to.

    One of the worst examples of sexism is comparing women to each other in what they provide by way of free domestic labor. There are some women who put in a lot of work and do a brilliant job in managing a household and god help you if you cannot meet their standards. Those women could be so talented and hardworking that running big companies would be a much better paid alternative to domestic slavery.
    The women who work multitasking for dear life and putting in maybe 12 – 15 hour days 7 days a week are the ones we are all compared to. Well if those women want to work themselves ragged for no pay good luck to them. But should that be the standard. Should all women be forced to work that hard for just their food and shelter with no legal right to any extra her husband might save or earn because of her amazing support.

    If women can’t earn enough to support a family then they are forced to put up with a lot of unfairness in relationships or face real poverty and overwork. The result is they either accept whatever the male wants in the relationship or opt out and be poor because all the hours spent meeting the standards of care for kids costs them big time.

    24 hour care of children and often hours of care for elderly parents. Most of the domestic work. It is largely due to providing massive unpaid service that is a huge boost to partners and children
    that women are poor, put up with abuse etc.

    Women don’t retire. They are still providing meals seven days a week and household services until their husband dies. Many spend their last years providing total care for sick husbands. That might be why there are so many women in rest homes because often women provided care for husbands instead of the men going into rest homes. So the girls get an extra 2.5 years. They are likely too buggered and unwell to enjoy their freedom. Most holidays from paid work that women get are spent catching up on housework or helping their overburdened daughters who might be working with children to raise.

    Complaining about days gone by men when women used to bake bottle etc all to save the family money.
    Baking, bottling etc all time heavy but money saving practices. Because men don’t have to pay their wives for the extra hours that means the wife is a cheap domestic slave unless the men share the extra money fairly. Oft guys really complain when they have to pay through the nose for the same items bought from the store. Those store bought items have profit built in to the price but also wages for the people doing the work. Its much cheaper do dump some extra hours on their ever loving slave or perhaps she can multitask the extra work with all her other work. Saving money is not all bad, but when one partner takes the reward for them selves, i.e. a new car boat or beer nights out trips away hunting fishing etc, without equal sharing for the partner who put in all those extra hours to save the money then that’s not OK.

    That’s enough for now. 🙂

    How many of you want to bash my head in for saying that I wonder?

    Liked by 1 person

    • I hate to say this, but your sexism — your horrid view of men — is so deeply entrenched that a debate with you is out of the question. You sound like you were badly wounded in marriage or relationships and are now out for revenge on all men. Ask your friends (who I suspect are female only) if you need therapy.

      You are reacting to me they way men reacted to feminists decades ago. It’s a new era. Deal with it, beginning with:

      “Wives Belong at Home with the Kids”

      Liked by 1 person

      • cherylw55 says:

        You are horrible. My view is reality. I haven’t married, not because I don’t like men but I don’t regard marriage as a safe place. Once you have kids if your husband breaks his vows and cheats on you or is violent, you either have to leave and endure poverty or put up with whatever is handed to you. Ive seen female relatives i.e. grandmothers aunts lives ruined by their husbands. Why would I put myself under the power of another person. i.e. male or female. Marriage originated from the buying and selling of women as domestic slaves by men. That is horrible but doesn’t mean all men are horrible. Men like you who believe in a gender based Tyranny have horrible mean beliefs. A person to use for your own benefit. Do you agree with slavery?, because that is the basis of marriage. Their maybe a few nice men who would not take advantage of the power it gives them over someone else but all I’ve seen is women being hurt. If marriage is so good for women why then have they been leaving it in droves. The only way for the new system to work is under threat of hunger and homelessness. Marriages can be happy but should not be forced.
        I believe you have a severe mental problem. Get therapy.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Eddie Coyle says:

      what a load of bilge, from an obvious recipient of a degree in Womyns studies or some other nonsense leading to a “wage gap” and “income disparity” …. DESERVEDLY!


    • Rick Amyot says:

      I don’t want to “bash your head in”, but I’d lend you a hand to pull you out of the 19th century…


    • Laurie A Curtis says:

      I love your response. Thank you. Too much boo hoo hoo on this website. Poor, poor men…they have it sooooooo bad. You did a great job knocking down his pity party. Thank you again.

      Liked by 1 person

      • If you care to make a constructive comment, please quote a few statements by me (exactly — don’t paraphrase) so that we can have a useful dialogue.

        You speak exactly like many men did over 40 years ago responding to feminists.

        Try not to be so afraid to engage in debate rather than engage in hate.

        The following is not for you — because, I think, you’re too afraid to read it — but for those reading your comment:

        False narratives about gender from sexist feminist liberals like Laurie Curtis have helped hugely to create this:

        “Republicans don’t have near as big a woman problem as Democrats have a man problem.” -Wall Street Journal

        And worse, this:

        “The whole Democratic Party is now a smoking pile of rubble: In state government things are worse, if anything. The GOP now controls historical record number of governors’ mansions, including a majority of New England governorships. Tuesday’s election swapped around a few state legislative houses but left Democrats controlling a distinct minority. The same story applies further down ballot, where most elected attorneys general, insurance commissioners, secretaries of state, and so forth are Republicans.”

        It’s a new era.


  4. cherylw55 says:

    “Far more women than men look at a prospective spouse as an “employer” who will pay them to stay at home when they choose to do so.”

    Say that again. “who will pay them to stay at home” What mother gets paid buy their husband to stay at home. So marriage is now a job not a partnership. So where is this non existent wage.
    They get their food and shelter if they are lucky, but then even slaves get that so that they can continue working for nothing the next day. The family dog gets that and doesn’t have to do between 8 and 15 hours up to 7 days a week. How much would an employer pay for those services? between 40and 105 hours per week. Lets say $10 per hour. So do husbands pay their wives between $400 and 1000 dollars per week. Could many of those wives have given up jobs that paid them $20 per hour for this nonexistent wage.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Why are you the only one who doesn’t understand what I said? Most people grasp my meaning of “employer” because it is in quotation marks. Since you seem to have taken my word literally, you went off on a tangent that is not only irrelevant but wrong.


    • James says:

      Are you kidding me?
      The line had already been crossed when you stated that you’re afraid of marriage because your husband will cheat on you and abuse you. That is a horrible outlook on men and wholly and completely degrading as a man to hear this.

      Then, then you have the gall the compare a wife to a slave or a dog. What. the. hell.

      My grandmother decided to stay at home and raise her kids. You ask, did she get an income? Did my grandfather pay her? Yes. Yes he did. He paid her by taking her to places she wanted to go. He paid her by buying the new house with the frills that she wanted to have. He paid her by letting her pick the most expensive hotels, the Chateau Frontenacs, the Empresses, the places she wanted to stay most. And this does not scratch the surface. Because none of that matters.

      In your corrupt, vile, sexist mind, You think that marriage is a trap. Marriage, in its proper iteration, is a union of love. My grandparents love each other. My parents love each other. Who cares about wage gaps, inequalities because of different employment, when you have love? I think you would fall into this strange category, along with a large number of feminist extremists.

      You seem like a horrible person. But I do not know your upbringing or the education you were subjected to. Just know that not all men are horrid cheating lying abusive people. That’s a decent start.

      Liked by 1 person

      • cherylw55 says:

        “My grandmother decided to stay at home and raise her kids. You ask, did she get an income? Did my grandfather pay her? Yes. Yes he did. He paid her by taking her to places she wanted to go. He paid her by buying the new house with the frills that she wanted to have. He paid her by letting her pick the most expensive hotels, the Chateau Frontenacs, the Empresses, the places she wanted to stay most. And this does not scratch the surface. Because none of that matters.” Oh so all women are treated that way are they.
        A woman I knew who co-owned a vitamin company told me that she had many female customers who were sick and their husbands refused to pay for vitamins etc they wanted. Imagine working for someone 7 days a week, for nothing but your keep for years and being told you cant even have vitamins when you are sick.
        I used to watch an agony aunt program on TV. One letter was about a woman who had just gotten maried to a guy. She was expected to look after his elderly mother while he went to the pub with his mates. For her trouble he gave her $20 per week. The female host of the show expressed her discust telling the poor duped woman she didn’t have to wipe his mothers bottom and from that moment the female host became the object of male hatred.
        My Mothers mother was married to a man who became an alcoholic. She held everything together while he drank. She started and ran a business, provided cooking and cleaning. Never a moment for herself. She saved a good amount of money which he withdrew from their bank account to buy himself a Jaguar car which she was not allowed to drive. She nursed her husband in her later years while he smoked and sat in a chair as he had had a stroke. Years after he passed I asked her would she marry again and
        her reply was “No it was too much work.” Grandad never went to war. I never knew him and maybe there’s a lot I don’t know or understand about his life but clearly marriage for my gran was not that rewarding. Just a 7 day per week job for no pay.
        My fathers mother had a hard childhood milking cows and then biking or walking 7 miles to and from school every day. She sill managed to top the region in her matriculation exams. Beat all the boys. Smart woman but marriage ruined her chances in life. She married a farmer worked in the house and on the farm. Her husband was a drinker and a womanizer. In those days the (financial) desperation of women made playing the field easy for men.
        My father told me as a child that before benefits a lot of women had to que up at the freezing works on payday to make sure they got some of their husbands pay for food and bills. If they didn’t do that a lot of the women and their kids would go hungry while their men spent what they believed was their money on other women, booze and all manner of things other than the basic support a man is expected to give his so called partner.
        Anyway Granddad got another woman pregnant and Nana got nothing for her years of hard work for her family. Everything she worked for went to her husband. No wages no nothing. No nice hotel, no security but dumped by her drunk husband. Should one wed a rich man you may not fair very well either. I have read that virtually all men in the
        aristocracy cheat on their wives and the women just turn a blind eye for job security. I guess that’s better than ending up as a bag lady which was not an uncommon fate of women dumped by wealthy husbands before matrimonial property laws were enacted.

        A woman I spoke to had just split from a guy in the armed forces. Her husband was stationed in Singapore where all of his regiment visited prostitutes on a regular basis. Most of those guys were married. The troop leader didn’t visit the prostitutes, but had a girlfriend despite his status of being married. These troops were not involved in any type of conflict.

        My father was a sheep shearer at one stage and admitted to me that when the blokes had had a few beers they would suddenly be attracted to the girls they worked with and marital fidelity went out the window pretty quickly.
        The mother of a friend related the story of working as an office worker for a large company in the UK where all of male without exception went off to visit their mistresses at lunch time.
        This is why benefits are necessary, to stop women and children starving and having to put up with gross unfairness inflicted on them because of their vulnerable situation. I.e Modern society demand children receive 24 hour care which is generally provided by women. This makes earning a living nigh impossible. If you leave children without care you can be jailed. To deny women any wage for providing this care makes it impossible for them to support a family outside marriage unless they earn enough to pay childcare because ex husbands are not asked to contribute to that cost. Not where I live anyway.

        So I’m not queuing up for a big white dress. Why trade a day when you are told you are some sort of princess for a life of drudgery. No thanks. Whew what a relief I’m still free at least in that aspect. No I’m not sobbing my heart out that I can’t find a husband like the women on Telly, who are used a marriage propaganda trolls.


        Liked by 1 person

      • Thanks for the long comment. If the roles were reversed, just as many women would do what you describe about men. To think otherwise is to be sexist. Remember: NO ONE DOES ANYTHING WITHOUT A PAY-OFF, REAL OR IMAGINED, IMMEDIATE OR DELAYED.

        Excuse the caps.


      • cherylw55 says:


        Yes I spent a lot of time considering the pay off people always look for when I was about 12 years old.
        Even when doing good for others there is a major payoff for ourselves. The thing is many of us weigh up whether a particular payoff is worth any possible damage to other people. I’m not saying I’ve never caused any damage to another person but I usually consider damage to others when I’m seeking something good for myself. Whats the point to life without enjoyment. The thing is do you also seek happiness (payoffs) for others. Do you treat your partner as collateral damage in your quest for a better life (payoff) for yourself. Do you take payoffs from others without giving back (what they actually want for themselves not what you think is OK for them)
        I’m all for the best payoffs for everyone myself included. To be balanced with what the the world and technology can offer us realistically ( while seeking to make the most of those options)

        Liked by 1 person

      • Thanks for taking the time to make a very thoughtful comment.


  5. Demonwolf13 says:

    I got here from an article about sports wage gaps. You can’t forget those add to the wage gap. Athletes make millions and feminists cry because women aren’t represented. Its because they aren’t watched. The average nba game has 10x more viewers then wnba. Similar to how you pointed out men take most of the highest paying jobs due to how many more of them have upper management degrees.


  6. Barbara Blaisdell says:

    I don’t believe I’ve ever read anywhere, about any topic, a bigger load of 1950’s bullcrap than the above. This man has the art of ‘blame the victim’ perfected. Couching his arguments in intellectual-sounding blah blah & adding pointless charts does not make his delusional female-scorning premises even interesting let alone true. Let’s not get caught up in nonsense that perpetuates discrimination & throws distractions in our way. FOCUS: PASS THE PAYCHECK FAIRNESS ACT, and then WORK LOCALLY IN YOUR AREA TO CHECK THAT IT’S BEING ENFORCED.

    Liked by 1 person

    • It’s a new era, Barbara. You speak as if I’m the only person saying such things. Ho ho. Maybe a few million saying it now. I don’t blame either women or men: both are doing what each feels they are expected to do. You added nothing but insults, which don’t tell readers much about me but an awful lot about you. Learn to debate, then come back.


  7. lilbudz says:

    I agree that this article does, in part, sound like “blame the victim”. There are some pretty suggestive conjectures in this article. I’m curious, how the author would feel if he was the part of society that have been oppressed and repressed for not just a decade or two but a millennium? If his views of the stats would be different? Would the questions asked in the data collection be different? I wonder if his views would be different if he had to ask permission the way women have had to ask for permission? The one aspect about data mining is that it can represent almost anything the interpreter wants the data to mean. While this article does shed some light on ‘equal employment and equal pay’, it is still limited in its scope and explanation. Statistics often do not account for empirical evidence such as societal norms that still linger from a very white patriarchal society, stereotyped attitudes that have been difficult to change.

    Evolution of societal norms takes time because people are not always willing to change. It is a constant battle for women to have the same rights as men. Women are in many of these fields because society has been ingrained for hundreds of years to believe very gendered cultural norms. It begs the question, for starters, “Why do these women work fewer hours?” Or “why are women not interested in certain careers or industries”? Women and non-white ethnicity have been suppressed, repressed, and oppressed by white caucasian men for hundreds of years. This is a superficial example but the fashion industry is very biased towards gender equality. No one thinks twice about a woman becoming a fashion designer. Yet any man who enters the fashion industry are criticized and ostracized. Reference a recent article in which Will Smith’s son was seen in public outfitted in none other than a “dress”. No one thinks twice about a woman wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Yet for a man to wear a dress or a more feminine tailored outfit is still frowned upon and the man’s manhood is suddenly questioned or berated. A man would not be caught dead in a feminine outfit because it challenges his “manhood”.

    You can argue that women live longer than men and the wealth of the woman all you want. Yet, it is only after the man dies does the ownership of the wealth actually change hands. Until then, the wealth is in his name and controlled by him. Women and non-whites have needed to get white caucasian male’s permission to have any rights at all. It’s interesting, as advanced as some people believe our society has become, equal rights still need to be legislated. Women still need ‘permission’ to enter society equal to men. Until 1921 women were not allowed to vote. Many women suffered harsh legal consequences to earn the right to vote – a right they had to fight “men” to achieve. Women were not allowed to own property, work outside the home, or own a business. If they did own a business, the business was often put in the son’s name or a male member of the spouse’s family. Women needed their spouse’s permission to work outside the home, unless the husband died.

    Men have been dictating societal norms for years including what is or isn’t acceptable careers for women. It has only been in the past 30 – 40 years that women have been allowed to even consider a career that was normed a ‘man’s occupation’. And in this same 30-40 years has it become more common-place or acceptable for men to consider sharing some of the burden of raising/nurturing the family such as taking off time when their children are sick, or attend parent teacher conferences, or any of the other duties tasked to a housewife/stay-at-home mom.

    This data does not account for those cultural norms that still linger.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Your deeply ingrained, one-sided feminism needs, I believe, a bit of balance, though I think you are too severely invested in your views and are scared to death of changing them:

      “The Doctrinaire Institute for Women’s Policy Research: A Comprehensive Look at Gender Equality”


    • Joe W says:

      Wow. You really sucked down every bit of victomology taught at school didn’t you. Were you a Womyns Studies major? I know a LOT of very successful women in many fields that have no time for such weak, backward looking outlook in life. As “evil” as White men have been, they sure have advanced the world to it’s modern state, and womens equality, gay rights and civil rights seem to progress mostly in countries “dominated” by evil White males. Such silliness, leads liberal women to call arguments over who pays for selective birth control as a “war on women” while elsewhere women are being enslaved, raped as an act of war, having their privates mutilated or being stoned to death. But liberal women ignore this REAL war on women because it is being done by those oppressed, saintly, Brown & Muslim people.


  8. Tammy Hart says:

    Just want to let you know I thoroughly enjoyed your article. I’ve been skeptical of the “gender wage gap”, and have often wondered about the many many factors that are involved in drawing a reasonable conclusion, but you’ve articulated them so well.

    The recent #talkpay discussion drew me and a male coworker into a private discussion where we decided to “be cool” and disclose our salaries. I found out I was making a significant amount more than he, despite his longer history at the company. I felt ashamed and apologized. He urged me not to saying that he felt like I had earned it for this and that reason.

    I also have a unique home situation where I was able to turn my addiction to the internet into a successful freelance career that has led to an agency position that I really enjoy. My husband now runs the home and homeschools the children while I am the sole provider. It has taken him some time to become comfortable with these “reversed roles”. It has changed our perspective of self-worth and what mutual respect in a marriage should be based on. I’m learning even now just putting this into words.

    That’s more than I thought I’d say, but I’ll just reiterate that your article was a great one to read. I look forward to reading more on your blog.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Tammy, thanks so much for taking the time to provide such positive feedback, and to tell a little slice of your life. People like you give me the courage to forge ahead. Tell your husband I’m jealous of him. I’ve learned in recent years that my greatest love in life is children. Thankfully I have a 2-year-old granddaughter to give all this love to. She eats it up, naturally.


  9. Eddie Coyle says:

    OUTSTANDING, fact based article. While it is pointed out women don’t take up STEM or I believe your called them GEEMP majors and careers, left out is the BLUE COLLAR choices women make. Few take up the well paying trades such as millwright, electrician, plumber, machinist, etc. Women do not take on the more physical or dangerous jobs in mines, oilfields, factories. They don’t take the jobs that require long, physical, dirty work far from home for long periods. I know many working class men that do going to places like Africa & Middle East and are well into 6 figures. Even in the Navy, on the same ships, women are few down in the engineering spaces, and many there were recruited or pushed into that work.


    • Very well put, Eddie! Thank you.


    • wanda says:

      Old thread, but it needs some perspective.

      You know, I personally remember when women couldn’t have their own bank account without their husband’s permission, and there was no doctor/patient or lawyer/client privilege for women, whose husbands got the information before (if) the women did. I remember when women were legally excluded from many otherwise public institutions, and weren’t even allowed to wear trousers in public. Sexual harassment and abuse was pretty common, since it was legal to rape your wife (no one even thought that was possible); and because “boys will be boys”, women learned early that if you tried to stand up for yourself you were ignored or punished as a “slut” who “asked for it”.

      Whether you happen to like it or not, it was men who were enforcing all this and I and other women didn’t just imagine this ugly crap. To the extent that it has, it didn’t end because men suddenly woke up one morning and said, “Hang on, this is just wrong.” It changed because women got uppity, which wasn’t any better received by men then, than by the men who wrote this article and its comment threads.

      It’s not as simple as saying that women are just choosing traditional roles. My experience is that we are herded there like cattle. I tried working in one of those dangerous professions you mention when I was a young woman (construction), and I was systematically sexually harassed, physically assaulted, and denied my pay check. Not every man I met on the job was a wanker, not even the majority, but the vast majority evidently had no problem with what the minority were doing, since not a single one of them ever stood up and objected on the spot to interrupt the behavior (though a few said something to me after the fact. Gee thanks, guys).

      And it’s not as simple as, “Stand up and ask for what you want”. Studies (and personal experience) are pretty clear that women who ask for more money/privilege at the office are seen as harpies and quickly punished for it. When kids come along, it’s by and large the women who have to make the time to deal with them at the expense of working fewer hours at the office, which is the magic path to equity offered by several posters here. The professional world is just not anything like a level playing field where all a woman has to do is act like a man to be valued like one, as the author and commenters so naively suggest.

      The wage gap has more to do with women having to pay the price for having children than anything else, but men aren’t exactly clamoring for mandatory parental leave for both parents that would protect their family interests, too–guys are petrified about falling behind at the office, and for good reason: that time loss is what scuttles many women’s career ambitions. There’s even a negative effect for women who choose not to have kids: they are penalized and overlooked because the men in charge think they might.

      No, life definitely isn’t perfect for men, but that certainly isn’t the fault of women acting in concert to deny them equal rights. I must say, you MRA crowd are really good at playing the victim, and ignoring and minimizing everyone’s experience but your own. To hear this author, one would think that men have been systematically suppressed for millennia, but–despite these nebulous statistics–I recall zero laws in *any* culture that force(d) men as a class to obey women and behave/dress/work the way women arbitrarily demanded them to. Men generally feel a strong impulse to try to please (even buy?) women at some level, but that’s because they have a strong biological desire to get laid and control patrimony, not because women do anything coercive to impel them to our preferences…unless you include (un)willingness to have sex in the equation, but there’s no way for a woman to opt out of that dynamic.

      And finally, at no time have men as a class been the primary family care-givers and housekeepers, and I agree wholeheartedly with the other poster that this absolutely is not because we women all conveniently prefer endless, thankless, 24-hour drudgery on top of whatever paid job we hold down. Generally it boils down to the fact that women will pick up the broom to deal with squalor before men generally will. Kudos to men who chose the domestic role, but we’d all be a lot better off if society demanded more equitable division of child-rearing duties for both parents. Then, if you choose not to have kids in order to get ahead at the office it’s not a gender-enforced pattern but a real choice.


  10. ButIDigress says:

    It seems, you feel so much better when people just agree with you. The fact is, both sides of the ‘argument’ make valid points. The best advice, however, seems more to be ‘To each their own’. Notice I didn’t say ‘To each his own’? Venture to guess why? Certainly, you can agree that there exists at least he and she constituting sides of the argument? Complicate that by the mature recognition that other combinations of gender identity have opinions as well… It isn’t so easy to dismiss them, these days. and perhaps,that rankles most those pining for the previously dominant, now diminished, ‘traditional’ roles.


    • Thanks for the comment.

      Re: “It isn’t so easy to dismiss them, these days. and perhaps,that rankles most those pining for the previously dominant, now diminished, ‘traditional’ roles.”

      If that is intended for me, please tell me where I “pine” for that.


    • Joe W says:

      And sometimes BS is just BS. Bottom line is, if a woman wants equal pay, she needs to get the EXACT same education, the EXACT same experience, and do the EXACT same job as a man, working the EXACT same hours, before one can accurately measure any “salary discrimination”.

      The facts on the ground are that women do not take the hard curriculum, the dirty, dangerous jobs, do not work the exact same number of hours nor do they place work as high up in their importance as men do, and they then complain men make more money.


    • cherylw55 says:

      Some comments about the wage GAP. Here in New Zealand we have had wage secrecy for 20+ years. A study was done recently and found that female graduates with the same degrees and seeking the same jobs were earning approximately $6000 NZ dollars less per year than their male counterparts after only 1 year in the workforce. So before there is any time for advancement the difference is very real indeed. In female dominated jobs the pay is usually poor. Being a doctor is a well paid job in the west where the majority of doctors used to be male. In Russia at the time of one study the Majority of Doctors were female and it was a low paid job. At one stage in Japan it was hard to get male workers in the construction industry so they used tiny Japanese women for building skyscrapers etc. While men are usually paid good money for building work, these Japanese women were paid very poorly. Here in NZ vets used to be very well paid and it takes a 7 year degree to qualify. There was a change in gender dominance of the profession to females and the pay dropped significantly.


    • Joe W says:

      Nobody is “pining” for the old days. What we are sick up, is pseudo statistics like “Women with 4 year degrees get 84% of what men with 4 year degrees get. Sounds great on TV, and empty heads think it means something. But it doesn’t. The difference is in the type of degree. Go to any STEM class, it is 85% men. THAT is where the good wages are, and nobody is stopping women from jumping into these HARD curriculums. Instead we get nonsense like Equal Pay for “Equivalent” work. No such thing. The marketplace sets pay, by supply and demand.


      • cherylw55 says:

        ” female graduates with the same degrees and seeking the same jobs were earning approximately $6000 NZ dollars less per year than their male counterparts after only 1 year in the workforce.”

        “with the same degrees and seeking the same jobs”

        Where is your study of men and women with the same degrees and same jobs. Studies like this one are rare because men want to keep using false arguments and salary secrecy to deceive their female employees.

        Liked by 1 person

  11. cherylw55 says:

    “pining for the previously dominant, now diminished, ‘traditional’ roles.” “Traditional roles” is a polite way of describing the “master, slave” relationship of marriage. Traditionally women used to promise to Obey her husband in the marriage ceremony. I rest my case there. Some Men long for a return to female slavery. Lets stop using bullshit terminology please. An unpaid worker is a slave.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Joe W says:

      I don’t think we have to worry about you being in any kind of relationship with a man…traditional…modern…slave…equal…or otherwise


      • cherylw55 says:

        That’s not actually true. An equal relationship would be fine by me. But I have my ear to the ground and know that men are set to take all our human rights away very soon. Behind the backs of their wives and girlfriends they are planning to institute the most horrendous slavery. I will not comment further on this but my guess is that you are part of this sickening movement.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Joe W says:

        I showed your posts to my educated, independent, wife (who would laugh if I ever told her to “obey”) and she called you a LOON.


      • cherylw55 says:

        Highly educated brainwashed or part of an evil elitist cult who laugh at what they are doing to women but promise their own wives they will not inflict sexism on them. After all they can afford the work to be done by others. She can laugh her stupid evil laugh all she likes.

        Liked by 1 person

  12. cherylw55, I hate to say this, but you are pathological. How else to explain this:

    “I have my ear to the ground and know that men are set to take all our human rights away very soon. Behind the backs of their wives and girlfriends they are planning to institute the most horrendous slavery.”

    Please enlighten us with your evidence.


    • cherylw55 says:

      My name is Cheryl Welch and I live in New Zealand. have had my life threatened with a policeman present and am being covertly tortured. Unfortunately i can say no more or wont last much longer.


  13. Wendy B says:

    I respect your opinion of course but as a woman working in technology for 30 years have a problem with your perspective. And if the pay gap doesn’t exist then why did Salesforce CEO in Nov 2015 execute an audit and spend $3M to correct gender pay gap for all of it’s 30% of women employees.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thank you for the comment.

      I didn’t say the wage gap doesn’t exist, only that it exists for reasons different from those espoused by the liberal media and politicized feminists.

      Examples I pointed out:

      “Female Docs See Fewer Patients, Earn $55,000 Less Than Men”

      “…[O]nly 35 percent of women who have earned MBAs after getting a bachelor’s degree from a top school are working full time.” It “is not surprising that women are not showing up more often in corporations’ top ranks.”

      As for Salesforce, read some of the revealing comments at the Atlantic site.

      I recommend you give the commentary another, more reflective reading.


      • RicoD says:

        The key to dealing with trolls is to ignore them. And yes this woman is clearly a troll. Not only does she hate men she enjoys riling them up. she probably is only a few steps away from going on a killing spree of men. Let’s not encourage her by responding to her shallow empty comments attacking men. Just think of it this way. Most likely she hates men because they don’t give her any attention. Most likely they don’t give her any intention not because she’s ugly on the outside but because she’s ugly on the inside. In a world full of pictures and movies and TV shows filled with beautiful people women forget men don’t fall in love with witches.


      • Thank you! All good points.


  14. This is very informative


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